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> Palestine Action has been designated a terrorist group in the UK as well after sabotaging military aircraft

This is already an extreme perversion of justice all on its own. Damaging military equipment is absolutely outside any useful definition of terrorism. This is simply armed conflict.



Damaging property for political ends has been part of the definition in the UK, and I think the US, for decades. I would say the case for targetting military equipment is stronger than for damaging most other things.

> This is simply armed conflict.

Armed conflict by residents and citizens against the state is usually a serious criminal offense everywhere.


> Damaging property for political ends has been part of the definition in the UK, and I think the US, for decades.

Does that include property in Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon? Because if the people who spray painted something are "terrorists", I want to know what the people who wiped Rafah off the face of the earth are called.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah


Colinizers?


The correct term is genocidal monsters.

Israelis and others who support this have shown that the lesson they took from the Holocaust is that they believe it's morally fine as long as they're the ones doing the killing.


Well the definition is flawed, or as the British say, the law is an ass.

Terrorism is widely understood to be the deployment of military force against civilian populations. Of course states do this all the time, but 'state terrorism' is basically dependent on whether politicians in country A align with country B or not; if they don't, they'll call out state abuses in country B as state terrorism, if not they'll say it's law and order.

Regardless of these nuances, extending the definition to include any kind of property damage is just laughably opportunist.


>any kind of property

"Any kind" is quite the load bearing argument there. Let me remind you Europe is under an ongoing land invasion, which is why fucking with its defensive capabilities is unlikely to solicit much sympathies.


So the idea is that Russia is planning on invading the UK?


You mean Russia invading Ukraine, right? Were these jets helping Ukraine or were they helping Israel?


Neither. They were part of anti-ISIS/ISIL operations.


In Europe?


Bad argument. If you sabotage military equipment in Europe, obviously you also indirectly lower the military potential of that army somewhere else. The planes in Europe aren’t there to be paperweights, they are either being maintained there for service or are there as a deterrent and need to be reinforced by other planes when damaged.


Bad argument. You're saying the French were wrong to sabotage Hitler's airplanes because they might've been used after the war to defend Germany from the USSR.


If you think European defense is analogous to hitler defending Germany in WWII, we should have started the discussion at a very different point. Do you really think that?


> Armed conflict by residents and citizens against the state is usually a serious criminal offense everywhere.

I think it’s worth considering that you’re much more likely to be a resident or a citizen than a state when you’re deciding how you feel about these kinds of things.


> Damaging property for political ends

Damaging military equipment is a military end, not a political one. If it were otherwise, then a military attacking a military would definitionally be terrorism. At that point, you've removed the utility of the word "terrorism" from English and made it synonymous with "armed conflict."

Terrorism being done chiefly to change policies by terrorizing people through symbolic acts is a constrained, generally-accepted definition of terrorism.

Contrast with 9/11, where symbols of American capitalism, filled with civilians, were attacked in order to terrify people who have nothing to do with those buildings into supporting changes in policy that hurt the US.


I suppose the UK could declare Palestine Action as combatants and hunt them down and shoot them.. but that doesn't seem very uh, appropriate. I sort of prefer them being arrested and going through courts.


Note that the UK would be committing war crimes in this case, since you are not allowed to murder unarmed soldiers, you are supposed to capture them and put them in POW camps.

Which is typically called „arresting“ when a government does it to their own citizens…


PA was armed.

> you are not allowed to murder unarmed soldiers,

That's also false, you can absolutely kill unarmed combatants so long as they remain combatants. Eg you can bomb an artillery crew even if they don't have sidearms.

To be eligible for capture, a combatant must generally surrender.

> typically called „arresting“ when a government does it to their own citizens

I encourage you to read up on POW camps. There are no attorneys or rights. You may work POWs. There are cases in which food and medical aid can be severely limited depending on how it is sourced. You may hold POWs functionally forever.


An artillery crew is armed with the cannon.

POWs don’t have attorneys, but they do have rights. Limiting food and medical aid is a war crime.

Of course, everybody routinely violates the rights of POWs, and only the losers ever get prosecuted.


By that logic, PA had fighter jets.

And no, limiting food and medical is not a war crime if the source being limited is from the captor and matches the treatment of their own troops.


Source that you wouldn’t be allowed to kill unarmed enemy soldiers? Imagine a scouting team doing reconnaissance, surely you’re allowed to attack and kill them?


Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

Laying down your arms is generally considered an expression of surrender and renders protection.

Also, who sends scouts unarmed? They should at least have a sidearm.


Laying down arms as an action is different to being unarmed.

And it was a hypothetical, there are a lot of situations where you can kill unarmed military personnel legally.

You can just bomb military barracks full of sleeping unarmed people legally for example.


Or you know... they could just prosecute them for their crimes like an actual functioning democracy.


Just because it's part of the government's definition doesn't mean that it's true. It's in the government's interest to define as much as possible as terrorism.


You cannot hide behind convenience.


Terrorising means causing terror. I have no real reason to be afraid of Palestine Action, because I am not a military jet.


Are you sure you want to say it's armed conflict? That makes it legitimate to kill members of Palestine Action.


The labeling of groups as "terrorist" is intended to justify authorization for military action against those groups, where, prior to the Global War on Terror, state affiliation or outright sponsorship was typically needed for a military response.


Do you think that's a different understanding of the situation than the one that the state currently has?

Is it not "legitimate" in the same way to kill terrorists?


I am not an expert on the legalities. My impression is that, if they are terrorists, you kind of have to catch them in the act, or preparing to act, or providing support for actions. An army, in wartime, can be attacked in broader circumstances.

Corrections welcome if I am wrong.


The US has murdered around 220 people at sea over the last year for the act of travelling like they are "narco terrorists".


Are you implying that PA is a military organization that is at war with the UK? I don't think you actually have thought through the implications of that. If this were the case, they would be considered legitimate military targets who can be killed.

That would be a lot worse for them than sanctions.


> Damaging military equipment is absolutely outside any useful definition of terrorism.

I hope no one takes this seriously.

If you're caught sabotaging equipment on a US military installation in many cases they are authorized to use deadly force and you'll be held accountable under the UCMJ. The absolute best outcome is you're designated a terrorist and live to see a prison cell.


Terrorism used to be defined as attacking civilian targets to aid in political messaging.

Attacking military targets is somewhere between an insurgency, partisanism, or an armed conflict.

If we let terrorism mean “any act against the state”, then people who burn police cars are the same as people who plant bombs in shopping malls.


> Terrorism used to be defined as attacking civilian targets to aid in political messaging.

Not consistently, and its not a clear definition.

The same groups that attacked civilians in places I have lived in also attacked military targets as part of the same strategy. Terrorism is used to threaten, divert resources from front lines, cause economic damage, etc. Civilian targets are attacked in most wars. Is a car bomb outside a military barracks that different from one in a civilian area? What about a suicide bomb aimed at a sentry on a civilian road? I was about to drive past that one. Are the civilians who were killed collateral damage from an attack on a military target or victims of terrorism?

> people who burn police cars

So people who attack a civilian target. By your own definition they are terrorists if they are doing it for political motives.


A police car is not a human being.

If the same group attacks civilian and military targets then the civilian targets are terrorism and the military targets are not.


If terrorism is defined as X, that isn't in contradiction with someone who does X and also Y and Z being a terrorist.


Yeah but it's not terrorism. Words have meanings you know.




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